#19. Game of Thrones Series Finale
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A morning-after micro-episode on the Game of Thrones series finale, with JVL absent for the excellent reason that he has never watched the show and may not own a television, and Matt Continetti sitting in — his first time on the podcast opposite Vic, which the two of them liken to a crossover event where he is Captain Marvel and the Thursday shows are the Avengers films. Matt declares himself satisfied "of course, being a cis-gendered white male," having identified with Bran ever since he got thrown out of that tower, though Sonny presses on how badly the showrunners handled the three-eyed raven business, since immortality apparently requires fusing with the tree like Max von Sydow. Matt's first thesis is that fans are terrible and Twitter is terrible and the combination makes him want to vomit — a symptom of a self-obsessed age in which viewers demand to see themselves on screen — and Sonny draws the parallel between social-justice complaints about the ending and the alt-right's fury at the new Star Wars films, flip sides of the same coin where the story fails to complete somebody's ideological headcanon. Matt's second thesis, borrowed from a Matt Zoller Seitz essay, is that film and television have merged into "content," which is ruinously expensive, and that the six-episode compression shows in the Starbucks cups and rushed effects; Sonny counters that Benioff and Weiss were the ones who wanted out to go make their Star Wars movies. Sonny's own complaint is purely about pacing — he wanted an extra episode of Dany riding south, realizing she could never be loved and could only rule by fear, which would have earned the burning of King's Landing — while judging The Long Night a badly shot exception in an otherwise strong season. Vic, who binged six seasons in a summer with his wife and thus never built up the emotional investment, liked the ending and compares the final small council pull-out to the last glimpse of Paulie in The Sopranos. They chew over Bronn as master of coin, Arya sailing west of Westeros, Sam's laughed-off suggestion of democracy, and the depressing news that only 18 million people watched what passes for a shared cultural experience now. Vic closes by cracking open a promotional bottle of White Walker by Johnnie Walker straight from the freezer at 9:23 in the morning; Matt responsibly abstains, and Sonny notes the chilled label design is fading faster than the White Walkers did.
From the show notes
#cdata-section -------------- In this micro-episode sponsored by DoorDash, Vic, Sonny, and special guest host Matt Continetti discuss the final ep...
Full transcript
Vic00:00:00Hello and welcome to this micro episode of the Sub-Beacon sponsored by DoorDash. Long day at work. Tough day at school. Still stuck at the office. Treat yourself to the meal you deserve on demand from your favorite restaurant. Restaurants come to you with DoorDash. Ordering is easy. Just use the DoorDash app and choose what you want to eat and your Dasher will bring it right to you wherever you are. Right now our listeners can get $5 off their first order or $15 or more when you download the DoorDash app and enter promo code SubBeacon. That's $5 off your first order when you download the DoorDash app from the app store. And enter promo code SubBeacon, S-U-B-B-E-A-C-O-N. I'm Victor Matus along with Sonny Bunch and Matt Continetti. Just a quick reminder that full episodes of The SubBeacon are available every Thursday at 11 a.m. As many of our listeners know, our co-host Jonathan Last has never watched Game of Thrones. Or TV. Or TV. I don't know that he owns a TV. He might use the memes but he actually has never seen the series but I watched it, Sonny and of course our guest host Matt watched it too. Not watched but watched past tense because last night, as we all know, was the final episode of Game of Thrones. Matt, were you happy with this ending because it seems nobody is.
Guest00:01:45First I'd like to say hello, Vic, because I don't think we've ever been on The SubBeacon together before. Because Matt fills in. I fill in for you. Oh my gosh. Wow. This is crossover event. The only two main. The main episode. Right. You know, this is like. We've done with not many. Yes. This is like, you know, an Avengers film about a new character. And then the big event, the big Avengers films are the Thursday episodes. You're the Captain Marvel. Yeah. So I feel like. Yeah. I feel like I'm working up. Well, yeah.
Vic00:02:16And we've done other series together. We've done other podcasts together. We have.
Guest00:02:20They're all canceled now. So thank you for having me on your program. Our pleasure. I was satisfied with the ending. Of course, being a cis gendered white male. Oh, boy. It was everything. Three strikes against you. I could have hoped for. I have.
Sonny00:02:37Yeah. Did you see yourself as Bran? The whole time. In that wheelchair. I've always felt. And I've been. You've always identified with Bran.
Vic00:02:46You felt as much of a man as Bran, too. Did you feel as much of a man?
Guest00:02:50Ever since Bran got thrown out of that tower. He's always been one of my favorite characters. And I believe. I made a point on another. Of these podcasts. Oh, yes. Yes. And I during the Long Night episode and there was that we were kept asking, why is Bran so important? What is Bran doing? Why do we care about Bran? Well, they did answer that in this episode. They aren't thrown because he turns out that he's the king.
Sonny00:03:19Can we just acknowledge briefly that the showrunners have not done a very good job with the whole three eyed raven concept? Because I was sitting there thinking, okay, fine, Bran, whatever. This is as good as anything else, except for the fact that he's immortal, right? Isn't that?
Guest00:03:37Well, I think you're immortal if you become the tree. So he has to become the tree. The Night King kind of screwed up that concept when they found him.
Sonny00:03:48So you're only immortal as the three eyed raven if you fuse with the tree of knowledge. You have to live in the tree like Max von Sydow. You have to live in the tree. You have to live in the tree like Max. Right.
Vic00:03:58And of course, because Max von Sydow, he's still alive. So maybe you do become immortal.
Guest00:04:03Maybe that's the last, right? The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. The greatest trick Bran ever pulled was making people think that he won't be king forever. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe this immortality thing, he is the last king of the six kingdoms. The six kingdoms. I have a few observations about the show. That's okay. Please. We have two hours. We have two hours. We don't. We do not. We have a hard cap. Quick points. Really quick points just to get the discussion going. The first is fans are terrible. Terrible. I hate fans. And also Twitter is terrible. And when you combine fans and Twitter, it just makes me want to vomit. It's ridiculous. It's a terrible storm. The second thing is I do think that... Could you just explain why you think the fans are terrible? What annoys you about the fans? I'm never satisfied. The fans are so revealing of our self-obsessed, narcissistic, me-me-me age, right? And it doesn't matter whether it's a Game of Thrones or whether it's Star Wars or whether it's the MCU, everyone seems to think, "Oh, I would have done it differently," or, "Oh, that's not what I like," or, "Where am I on that screen?" Where is Matt Continetti on that screen? Where's your representative? When have I ever been represented on the screen, Sonny? I've... Where is... Where am I? So it... And then you have to go to...
Sonny00:05:31I was... I was Edmure. Tully. That was me. I thought of... Excuse me. I have something to offer to this council.
Guest00:05:38Look, to that point, I thought that scene was funny. It was great. I thought it was good.
Sonny00:05:41It was a great scene. It had everything. I mean... I actually... People are complaining about that final council scene, and I will say that I found all of it... I found all of it... I found all of the comedic beats perfect, my one big complaint that I'm probably stepping on something. My one big complaint is the idea that they would let the North go, and then the Iron Islands, Yara, Greyjoy wouldn't be like, "I'm out too." I agree.
Guest00:06:05I thought Yara's motivations weren't necessarily all that clear in that scene. So my second point, though... Okay, let's stipulate fans are terrible. Second point is... And I keep referring to this essay that Matt Zoller Seitz wrote a few weeks back when The Long Night came out. Now, which is the trouble with content, and the point of this essay that he wrote, which I recommend to everybody online, is that we used to have film that you experienced in the theater. Then you had television, which was on that small box in your living room that you watched once a week. Now these two mediums have merged into something that we just call content. And so we have Avengers films, which are huge cinematic spectacles, but also kind of like TV in that it's a running narrative. With different characters that you follow. And we also have something like Game of Thrones, which for the last 8 years was more or less, especially in the last 5 years or so, more or less a summer blockbuster on your television. Especially these huge TVs with ultra high definition that we have now. So the trouble with content is, you need a lot of money for it. And the economics of Game of Thrones, I think, started to hurt in the final season. We all know about the gaffes. Right? With the water bottles or the Starbucks cups, which suggest that they were kind of rushing, that they weren't really. Definitely. There was also some of the special effects. But more importantly, the fact that you had to collapse the ending of the show into these six episodes is disappointing because it's clear you could have made at least another season, maybe even one after that to just get through. You know, if you go back, you want a real nerd reference? Babylon 5. Okay. Very similar. Wow. They fight the shadows, defeat the shadows. Nobody has any idea what you're talking about right now. Yes, they do. These people listening, they defeat the shadows and then they still have a season and a half where they go with and they have to face Earth. So you're saying Babylon 5 did it better? Yes. Oh, totally. And so, but Weiss and Benioff couldn't do it any better because they're constrained.
Sonny00:08:25Well, here's... There's a dispute over this. My understanding is that Benioff and Weiss wanted out. They are the ones who wanted to end the show after six episodes. That's interesting. It wasn't that HBO was afraid of spending money on it. Well, they wanted them to do more, right? They want to go make their dumb Star Wars movies.
Guest00:08:43And that's a terrible decision on their part.
Sonny00:08:45So this has been my complaint about this whole last season. It's not any of the outcomes. I think all of the outcomes are basically fine and it has nothing to do with the way the characters were treated. Even character arcs or anything like that. My complaint is that everything felt too compressed. Definitely. So look, you spend two episodes getting everyone to Winterfell. And then after that, it's just a sprint to King's Landing to finish. And that just feels like it unbalanced everything. I could have used a whole nother episode of Dany just traveling south on the King's Road, trying to, you know, win the alliances with people and realizing more and more that she will never be loved, that she could only rule by fear. And then that that last scene would have made a little bit or the last scene on the dragon where she's burning down King's Landing would have made a lot more sense, a lot more sense. It would have would have been more more effective. But you know, these are these are these are, I think, modest quibbles with a show that I feel like more or less pulled it off. Totally.
Vic00:09:52I liked I liked the ending.
Sonny00:09:54Something fine. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. Doing something as absurd as putting Bran on whatever the iron throne replacement is and making it just making a regular throne. Yeah. Just like a wood throne. His wood. He has.
Vic00:10:09He has a mobile. But remember, the dragon had the dragon smelted the throne because the dragon knew that the next king won't need it and won't need to sit on it because he's got his own throne. That he may be the dragon wheels. They don't know that it has a throne.
Sonny00:10:23Do you think that was Bran?
Guest00:10:25I thought that was a great touch. Touch, though. And no one is going to sit on this. No, that's it. At the end of the day, we spent eight years wondering who's going to sit on the throne at the end.
Vic00:10:33No one. And, you know, so so many people obviously were just talking about this man who are upset about, you know, how it ended and it's not their ending. It's funny for me and for my wife. We were you know, we're not as emotionally vested because we had to catch up on Game of Thrones. We were a binger. We went. We binged. So one summer, I think two summers ago, we got up through seasons one through six and one summer. So, you know, these emotional reunions back and forth, I'm like, oh, yeah, they were there last week.
Guest00:11:01That's not because you binged. That's because you and your wife are normal people. It's fair. And you don't have you don't the fact that you have nothing else in your life.
Sonny00:11:11The fans have nothing else in their lives.
Guest00:11:12Right, right, right. And so they create this emotional attachment to a piece of intellectual property that are that is made by people with far greater skill and talent than them. And so inevitably, this. A weird dialectic where, you know, you both love it and yet you resent the fact that you're not a part of it. It expresses itself in this moment. This is just so disappointing. And then, of course, there's the identity politics critique, which is related, but somewhat separate, which is, oh, my God, it ends up being a cisgendered white male sitting on the throne and John kills Danny and Sansa, you know, she's confined to her kingdom in the north.
Sonny00:11:53I the the reaction of. Some of the, shall we say, more people who are interested in social justice to this reminds me very, very much of the reaction some of the, shall we say, alt-right fans had to the newest Star Wars. Right. Yes. Very good. It is. It is. It is flip sides of the same coin here. The these these products have not completed the headcanon, the like ideological identity politics headcanon of the the folks who are watching. And so they get angry about it. And what it is, it is entirely it is entirely based on how they see themselves in these roles. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.
Vic00:12:35Did you know? Did you know that Jon Snow was going to stick it?
Guest00:12:39Well, it was pretty clear. He comes in with two swords. He has his his main sword, Wolf Bane. Right. Is that his name? Wolf Bane. Wolf Bane. And then. And then. But on his right side to our left on the screen was a second sword that was apparent in the medium shot when he enters. So I kind of said to myself, and he's going to kill her. So, yeah, I thought they did a good job of foreshadowing that though, that the portrayal, the acting was it did leave you hanging for a second was like, oh, wow, maybe he is going to pledge his life. But no, it worked out.
Vic00:13:11And then I thought it was just a really intense kiss that she was reacting to.
Guest00:13:15It was the best scene those two have ever had together because I've never I've never bought their relationship. No, she's not the best actress, but I actually think she came alive in the last couple of
Vic00:13:24episodes. It was an enlightening moment.
Guest00:13:26Yeah. And even the speech she gave.
Vic00:13:28What did you think about that speech? To the Unsullied and to the Dothraki. Yeah. What do you think about the speech itself?
Guest00:13:36You mean, does it conform with my political views?
Vic00:13:38I really want to know about that.
Guest00:13:40No, I think it showed the dangers of a missionary foreign policy, of a Wilsonian idealism. It does. I mean, and there is something to be said for restraint. And so, no, I thought I didn't have a problem. I didn't have a problem with it, but maybe that's more about my own intellectual journey over the past couple of years.
Vic00:14:03I was amused by Sam Tarly's suggestion of a democratic process. It was hilarious. And I'm like, please don't tell me that's how it ends, you know, and of course they all start laughing. They all start laughing. Yeah. My dog wants to vote.
Guest00:14:16So I thought that was pretty good. But, you know, Sam has always been ahead of his time. Yeah.
Vic00:14:19Is the truth.
Guest00:14:20Yeah. That's right. Well, or he's foolish. So, you know, fast forward a thousand more years. Mm-hmm. And maybe they'll have democracy in Westeros.
Vic00:14:27Where does Arya go? On a new show? Into her new show. Is she where she discovers the Northwest Passage?
Guest00:14:32She's going to the east or she's. West.
Vic00:14:35She's going west. West of Westeros. Off the map.
Guest00:14:38She's going to America.
Sonny00:14:39The world is round. So. I really was hoping for a post-credits scene where she just like falls off the, like the world of Westeros is actually a square and she falls off the edge like that.
Guest00:14:49Yeah. Right. No, but that's it. Maybe they don't understand that the world is round because there's Essos, which is supposed to be, uh, basically the old world and Westeros is more or less the, uh, Western hemisphere. But so I, I always thought that in the books that it's referred to as a shy or the lands in the east. And that's supposedly where Melisandre, uh, learned her magic. So I'd imagine, and they don't know anything about it. So I'd imagine in this spinoff, if it happens, cause it hasn't been greenlit. As far as I know, the only spinoff is actually a prequel, right? Uh, that's impressive. The introduction anyway. That's right. But if the spinoff happens, I assume she'd be going into much more kind of magical, uh, world. Mm-hmm . Do you have any other thoughts, Sonny?
Sonny00:15:36Uh, no, I mean, I, the, the, the thing about this, this season, uh, is that it has been incredibly divisive, um, for reasons that are generally dumb and, and not related to the story. I mean, the one, the one big mistake, as we've said, is that it was not. Not long enough, could have used at least one, maybe two more episodes. Yeah. And I do think that the, the actual filmmaking of the battle, battle of Winterfell, uh, the long night, that episode was terrible. It was. Um, with, with, with some exceptions, I mean, the, the, the like kind of zombie house stuff with Aria running through the tape. That was great. Great. All that was, all that was really well done, but the actual giant battle themself that they spent. Disappointing. That they spent, you know, 800 nights filming, uh, in 10 degree weather for, you know, what, uh, was, was bad. It didn't, didn't look good. It, it, especially compared to everything else we've seen this season. I mean, the, the assault on King's Landing was fantastic. Uh, uh, all of the rest of the, the actual big action sequences were, were really well done. That was just that. Um, so I, you know, my, I, with anything like this, uh, an ending is going to feel kind of pat because you could keep going forever, right? Like you could, do we really think that the rest of the six kingdoms are going to just be like, okay. Cool. This, this cripple, this, this cripple child is going to be our door and or wherever.
Guest00:17:00Um, well now you have Bron on the high council and you already see kind of, I kind of puzzled over that decision by Tyrion was like, you know, Bron is a troublemaker.
Sonny00:17:09Well, I, I also didn't quite understand his role. So he's the master of the purse, but, but how does he have all this money?
Vic00:17:17Is it just received all of that? And of course Highgarden, right?
Sonny00:17:19I mean, that was part of that was the deal that he gets Highgarden, but like I. I also think the finances of this whole world make no sense.
Guest00:17:27Right. But I also think, you know, Tyrion wanted him in the cabinet and he's a clever guy. Yes. So he's a person that you'd want there, but of course he's also kind of a malcontent and who is easily bought. So I don't know if you'd want him in that position, but it's also good.
Vic00:17:42Keep them close, right? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer and it's good that he keep an eye on what Bron is doing because he's very crafty. I liked the ending as it pans out. It kind of reminded me of like the last scene in the Sopranos with the last time you see Polly and sort of business as usual. It'll continue going on and as you see there, they're sitting around this table. What happened to Polly? He just kept on going. I mean, you know, that was the end. Was he sitting outside Satriali's? Yeah. He was sitting outside Satriali's and that was the end. And just like...
Sonny00:18:07No. Well, that's not the end of the episode. Yeah. So it happens before... That's the last time you see him though. Yeah. Yeah. Where he gets promoted to... You're talking about the pullout from the little council. Yes. Yes.
Guest00:18:18That's right. That's right. But I didn't... I mean... I like that scene. You know, the Sopranos is alive in your brain in a way that it is not in mine. Yeah. The show. There was a lot of talk over the weekend about the ratings, you know, and I saw in Brian Stelter's media email, there's estimated 18 million people saw it.
Vic00:18:35Well, that's so pathetic.
Guest00:18:38I mean... It's not mesh. If you talk about a shared cultural experience... Yeah.
Vic00:18:42Yeah.
Guest00:18:43We just do not have anything like that anymore. Never again. The closest is the Super Bowl. Yeah. Maybe, you know, a big political event, but 18 million people... Yeah. Yeah. It's a great for HBO, but...
?00:18:55It's more than the Super Bowl.
Guest00:18:55But it is totally disproportionate to the type of unifying cultural experiences that we had in a time when there were just, you know, three television networks plus PBS,
Vic00:19:06you know? And just like a clarification, the ending of the episode last night. Right. So, he's not leading... He's not an escort for the Wildlings. He's become one. He's joined... Yeah. I think that is what's implied.
Sonny00:19:23He's joined...
Guest00:19:24He's out of 5,000. Yeah. He's joined the caravan. He's joined the caravan. He's always been, you know, a wild folk, free folk, a member of the North and...
Sonny00:19:32Yeah. I thought that was great. Yeah. I mean, he's basically turning into Mance Rayder.
Vic00:19:36Mance Rayder. That's right. Okay. Thank you. We have a special treat, by the way, on this episode, which is a thank you to our friends at Hunter PR and Diageo, which is the White Walker by Johnny Walker. These are single malts from Cardew in Clennellish, one of Scotland's most northern distilleries. White Walker is best served... Very good. ...directly from the freezer and features pack technology that reveals an icy design when chilled. What is the message, Sonny? Well, we can't tell people.
Sonny00:20:02They need to freeze the bottle and find out for themselves. Very good. Also, it's already fading away in the 25 minutes it's been out.
Vic00:20:08It lasted longer than the actual White Walkers, though.
Sonny00:20:11So that's good. That's good. Do you think... I am kind of curious. Do you think... Do you guys wonder if the people who signed this PR deal for, like, White Walker, Johnny Walker were a little bit freaked out when the White Walkers got taken out? Yeah. I'd say that... Third episode of the season.
Vic00:20:27I would have been, because I'm pretty sure they didn't tell them. HBO didn't say, "Okay. Well, here's where they end." Yeah. You know what I mean? The whole thing is about the White Walker.
Sonny00:20:34But here.
?00:20:35Did you have a sip, Sonny? Let's have a sip.
Vic00:20:37Here we go. Oh, that's delightful.
Sonny00:20:39Yeah. At 9:23 in the morning... I mean, look. We're having a very, very small sip here. We're not... We're not... Matthew is not participating, and he is... No, he's responsible.
Guest00:20:48In fact...
Sonny00:20:49It would be the end of my day if I did. He is, in fact... He is, in fact, judging us, I think.
Guest00:20:55No, you can't, because that would be the end.
Sonny00:20:57Oh, I'm sure it's fine.
Guest00:20:58It'd be the long night of Matt Continetti if we started now at 9:23.
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