#39. Gemini Man, World Series Tix, and the Death of 3D
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Matt Continetti subs for Vic again and the subject is Gemini Man, which all three agree doesn't work. Sonny calls it "a refugee from the 1990s" with the easiest elevator pitch ever — Will Smith fights himself — and no story worth caring about, yet he saw it in IMAX high frame rate 3D and found it entrancing, the most immersive thing he's experienced since Gravity, "the best video game since Tomorrow Never Dies." Continetti agrees the water and the explosions have a striking solidity but says he stopped noticing the technology as his annoyance grew; for him the real failure is Junior, an entirely digital young Smith who "is Gollum," expressionless and moving so strangely that the illusion collapses, plus Benedict Wong delivering every line into dead air and a stolen-plane subplot that seems to have been cut out from under him. "I felt like I was at a funeral," he says, pointing to Ang Lee's own admission that he now cares more about inventing a new medium than about story. JVL is the hard no: high frame rate exposes staging, demands that actors hold impossibly still, and justifies itself exactly twice, in the grenade blast in the Cartagena courtyard and a missile hitting a jeep — and he cannot forgive a third-act reveal that a company literally named Gemini has been cloning people. That segues into a happy wake for 3D, now down to 16% of ticket revenue from a peak near 22%, with Peter Jackson's Hobbit films looking to Sonny "like being at a middle school Ren Fair." The show opens with JVL polling the room on the price at which taking eleven-year-old Flash to a Nationals World Series game stops being father of the year and starts being insane: the cheapest standing-room ticket on the secondary market is $820, Continetti says be ready for $1,200 a pop, Sonny won't go past $500. Also: Joker's remarkable 42% second-weekend hold, a pitch for a Penguin origin movie, and an Instagram Vic doppelganger JVL can't stop staring at.
From the show notes
#cdata-section -------------- On this week's episode, guest-host Matthew Continetti fills in for Vic Matus as the gang discusses Ang Lee's use of ...
Full transcript
Sonny00:00:00I think I know why he's as good as you. He is you.
Mike00:00:0625 years ago, they made you from me. They chose me because there's never been anybody like me.
JVL00:00:14We have to end this right now.
Sonny00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another edition of The Sub-Beacon. I'm Sonny Bunch, along with Jonathan V. Last, and subbing in for Vic Matus's Matt Continetti. Just a reminder, The Sub-Beacon is available on iTunes, Google Play, and Stitcher. Look under podcast and search for Sub-Beacon. You will easily find us. Please subscribe, tell your friends, and leave a review. JVL, what's going on? So, boys, I need your help. Oh. I need your help. That sounds serious.
JVL00:00:58Money, money talk.
Sonny00:00:59Money talk. Money talk.
JVL00:01:00Can we have a money discussion? How much is that watch you're wearing?
Sonny00:01:02Do you need money? I don't have any cash on me. Yeah, I don't carry cash anymore.
JVL00:01:08The Nationals are going to the World Series. Oh. Oh, yes. Flash is 11 years old, obsessed with baseball, and it is entirely possible that this will be the only time in certainly his childhood, but maybe in his life up to, say, age 25, in which we could go to a World Series game in our hometown. Mm-hmm. He would remember this for forever. Yes. He is of the age. Right. He's 11 years old. This would be a foundational memory. A foundational memory, and there's the advantage of the fact that he doesn't especially like the Nationals. So if we went to the Nationals World Series game and they lost, he would not be crushed by it. We like a couple of the Nationals players because we watched them in the minor leagues, and so we feel close to them.
Sonny00:01:55Well, doesn't this run up against his front-running tendencies?
JVL00:02:00It does, which is why he's kind of like, you know, I could like the Nationals now that Harper's gone.
Sonny00:02:05Oh, okay.
JVL00:02:06Bryce Harper leaving is another big...
Guest00:02:08That's what propelled us to the World Series.
JVL00:02:10So here is my question to you. What is the dividing line on ticket prices where you stop being father of the year and you cross over and just being silly and absolutely not worth it, ridiculous?
Guest00:02:24Do you have any big vacations coming up?
JVL00:02:26No. So let us say, for the sake of argument... That the question isn't, like, do I have the money for it? Okay. Okay. Let's assume that...
Sonny00:02:35Let's say you have limitless funds.
JVL00:02:37No, no. Well, because that would obviate the whole debate. JVL has a rainy day fund sitting around for things like timepieces or... Right.
Sonny00:02:45But you're not going to Disney World. How many watches is your son worth to you?
JVL00:02:52But this is a serious question. So at what point do you say, yeah, you know what? Bite down on the stick. Just go do it. And at what point do you go? Are you fucking kidding me?
Guest00:03:02Do you recall you and I went to a Sox game at Fenway? I do remember that. You know, four. And we got our tickets from a scalper. A scalper right on the street. Right on the way in. And we paid a pretty penny. I'm pretty sure. 60 bucks a piece or something. Was it 60 a piece or 80 a piece?
JVL00:03:17Right. So... Sox Yankees, the year they went to the World Series.
Guest00:03:21It was great. That's right. It was a July game, though. Yeah.
JVL00:03:24But it was the night after the fight.
Guest00:03:26So if you're not... Oh, was it that... It was the night after. I remember that.
JVL00:03:29It was the night after. Jason Veritech had punched out... What's his name? Alex Rodriguez at home plate.
Guest00:03:35Were you guys up there for a convention? Yeah. Is that what it was? It was the DNC. Anyway, so from that experience, I'm not against spending money to attend a baseball game. I would say...
Sonny00:03:46Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That is a whole different universe, though. You're talking like 60, 80 bucks a ticket. I would assume...
JVL00:03:52Can I guess what the prices are, JVL? You can guess. And because I just looked up the second... So the primary market has not yet opened. Uh-huh. As we tape this, the Nationals have not released to the general public the non-purchased tickets, tickets not purchased yet by season ticket holders. So only the secondary market is currently functioning.
Sonny00:04:10So these are only season ticket holders who are looking to scalp what they already have.
JVL00:04:14Correct.
Sonny00:04:15Go ahead and guess. I would guess the cheapest ticket is $500 for one ticket. You would be wildly incorrect. Way, way low?
JVL00:04:22Way low. Oh, like $1,000? What's the... The cheapest standing room only ticket.
Guest00:04:29Right.
JVL00:04:29Is currently $820.
Guest00:04:32So I was going to tell you $1,200. I think if you're not going on vacation, if you're not going to Disney World, you have an 11-year-old child who loves baseball, baseball player, going to remember this, I'd be prepared for $1,200 a pop. $1,200 a pop. A ticket. I'm using a $1,200 a ticket.
JVL00:04:51$1,200 a ticket. That is a perfectly fine thing because when you amortize that out over the next 80 years of his life. Yeah. Over the next 80 years of his life. That comes down to something like, what, $15 a year or something?
Sonny00:05:01That is a lot of money.
Guest00:05:03It's a lot of money, but, you know, knowing the circumstances, knowing the price point, you don't want to stand for the whole game. You don't want to be squeezed together.
JVL00:05:13An 11-year-old kid can't stand because he won't be able to see. Right. So a standing room only ticket is not going to work for 11. Got to have a seat.
Guest00:05:20Well, you know, that actually is an argument for not going because the people are going to be on their feet the entire time. So if you have a... If you have a situation where you've got a bunch of tall people in front of Flash, you might be disappointed. But, yeah, you need a seat, especially kids that got to go to the bathroom every, you know, 90 minutes or whatever. Doesn't happen when you get to age 11. Oh, really? This kid can all... That's something to look forward to. This kid can pee, like, once a day.
Sonny00:05:46It's great. What would you do, Sonny? Where would you draw the line, Sonny? I don't know. For a ticket to a game for a team he doesn't actually care about, this is... I would be willing... Well, but he cares a little bit about it. World Series in Washington. I would be willing to spend more money for, like, a... If he was really into the Nationals, I think that would be a difference than this. I don't know. $2,400 is a lot. I would... I mean, a grand, maybe, total for the whole thing. A grand total?
JVL00:06:17So, I'm sorry. If you're spending $2,000, you wouldn't go the extra $400? $2,400. $2,400 is a grand total. No, no. He's saying a grand total. He's saying $500 per ticket. Yeah. Which, I mean... At $500 a ticket, I'd buy four. You'd go to the Green Turtle. Right.
Guest00:06:34That's probably $500 to go to the bar across the street and watch the game.
JVL00:06:37All right. Well, so we'll see. I'm not convinced that these ticket prices are going to stay where they are right now. I think that there is a rush of people who are just jumping in.
Guest00:06:48I mean, the crowd, though, on Tuesday night, I mean, it was... They didn't sell out. Don't forget.
JVL00:06:53They didn't sell out. No. There were still 2,000 tickets not sold.
Sonny00:06:56Don't forget that DC... DC fans are notorious frontrunners. So everyone in every lobbying house and every fundraiser in town is getting their hands on these tickets to distribute to their cronies.
JVL00:07:09I will say this, though. If the Yankees win the American League, then the prices will only go up because you have all the New York finance people just taking the train down to go there. So Houston, in order for this to be achievable for me, Houston has to win the pennant. You need Houston to win.
Guest00:07:24Yeah. Yankees-Nats World Series will be, I think... It will be, I think, a bigger event than a Houston-Nats series. In terms of media, in terms of coverage, you have the Acela Corridor Series. That will be if the Yankees... Yeah.
JVL00:07:36And just all the New York finance money would come down to, as they do everywhere else,
Sonny00:07:40like locusts. Well, plus New York... You know what? You know who's going to fix that?
JVL00:07:43Elizabeth Warren. Please. Those people won't be able to afford a nickel once she's president. No politics.
Sonny00:07:50The problem with an Astros-Nats World Series is that it creates a tension. For the Free Beacon office. Why is that? Because then it's the Nats versus Mrs. Upton. That's true. Mrs. Mr. Upton. Mr. Upton. Oh! Justin Verlander.
Guest00:08:06But it also means that Ms. Upton will be coming to Washington. So...
Sonny00:08:11Is she going to come by the offices?
Guest00:08:14The Matron Saint? We can try. We can... The Matron Saint of the Washington Free Beacon? She's the Matron Saint of the Beacon. Yeah.
JVL00:08:21Anyway, how are you... Matt, how are you doing? How are you doing? I'm doing well.
Guest00:08:24I'm in a better mood. Yeah. Than I was the last time we recorded the show. So... Good. Things are looking up. Good. Things are happy. I'm happy about the Nats. Went... Had a nice trip to Chicago earlier in the week. Met a few Sub-Beacon fans. They're everywhere. They're everywhere. So, yeah. So, things... Were they excited you were on the show?
Sonny00:08:47Was it like they got to meet a celebrity for the first time in their life?
JVL00:08:51They all wanted to know where Vic was. Do you have Vic with you?
Sonny00:08:53Where is Vic? Where is Vic? Where is Vic going?
Guest00:08:56Yeah. Why are you on the show again? You got the Marx brother wrong. You didn't... Do you know Vic Matus? What's he like? How big is his head? It's really big. It's the biggest head I've ever seen. That's what I tell people. I'm just not a liar. It's the truth.
JVL00:09:12Anyway. Sonny, how are you? What's going on, Santino?
Sonny00:09:14I'm fine. I am perfect. Really great. Perfect. You got sort of Jason Bateman hair going on today and it's a great look. Let me tell you how you do this. Get out of bed in the morning and you're like, ah, crap, I got to get going. One of the stupid Sub-Beacon podcasts. I got a tape of these idiots. So no shower. That's natural hair. No shower this morning. More or less. No product. There's some residual product from the day before.
Guest00:09:35Residual product?
?00:09:36Wow.
Sonny00:09:37Yeah. But, you know, it's important. Wildcat. Wildcat. I don't know. Things are great. Things are great with me. How are you? I'm excited for the Nationals fans, even though I am not a Nationals fan, because I have a residual appreciation for baseball, even though I have not watched a single game in like two years. Yeah. The Orioles drove you. Well, no, it's not just the Orioles. It's like having two kids. Like, bedtime is during the games. Like, it's not conducive to watching. It'll come back. But hopefully it will come back one of these days.
JVL00:10:12No, when your kids start watching baseball with you. If your son likes it. Yeah.
Sonny00:10:16Hopefully my son will be into sports. We'll see. I don't know. I'm good. I'm good. I'm great. Great. Gemini Man. Whoa.
Guest00:10:25I don't know.
Sonny00:10:27Vic sent us a script, but there's just a hole here for the box office transition. So, I don't know, you know. Speaking of twins. I used to think that this podcast was a tragedy, but now I realize it's a comedy. Speaking of comedies that were tragedies. Hold on. No, that's no good. All right. Joker remained at the top spot in the box office with $55.9 million this weekend, followed by The Addams Family with $30.3 million, and in third place was a movie we're talking about today, Gemini Man, grossed $20.5 million. JVL, do you have any box office thoughts? Joker had a decline of 45%. Less than that, like 42%.
JVL00:11:07Giving it the second largest hold in an October ever, I believe, and is now heading towards, what do we think, Sonny? 320?
Sonny00:11:21320 domestic? It is at, let's see. It's 209 right now as of, I think, Wednesday's totals, or maybe even Tuesday's totals. I don't think 320 is out of the question. We'll see how it holds this weekend. This weekend, it's going to have some actual competition. What was the budget? $55 million. Yeah, I mean, this movie has already grossed 10 times its budget worldwide, which is, it's going to be hugely, hugely profitable, which is nice because maybe it means we'll start seeing some more. More experimental, darker, you know, it is adults. Sonny always wants darker. It is a takeaway comic.
Guest00:12:04Well, it's a way of smuggling a character study into a comic book. Right. So this is what you would want is you would want. And to some degree, Marvel already does this. They use the comic book characters as a means of making types of movies that Hollywood has abandoned. Right. Absolutely. So caper films or. Comedies or in this case in the DC universe and Todd Phillips, it's basically a throwback to the types of character studies that in many ways it's an homage to them that filmmakers made in the late 70s, early 80s. So if that's a model, I think that might be an upshot of the comic book revolution.
JVL00:12:46It's funny that the so the DC cinematic universe is alive. Yes. But it's alive with movies like Joker and Aquaman.
Sonny00:12:55Well, this is not part of the DC cinematic universe. This is like an Elseworlds story.
JVL00:13:00But it's a it's a funny. But it's part, you know, it's a DC trying to figure out what you're going to do. This is another way to keep going. I mean, this is, you know, you don't know what you want to do with Justice League 2. But but well, we could make another Joker type movie. I am another standalone.
Sonny00:13:17I am. I'm extremely curious to see what happens with Wonder Woman 2 because I get the sense that that movie is either in trouble or a disaster because I haven't. I've seen two images from the film. They've they've delayed it. They've delayed. They've pushed it back. They push back the release. They they literally I literally I think two two still photos from from the set have been released. One of Chris Pine and then one of Wonder Woman herself, I think, and a couple of posters. But like, I have no idea what is going on with this movie. I have no idea where it is. You know, there was some talk that they didn't want to step on the releases of the other films. But like. Yeah, I would say for a movie that is supposed to be kind of the resurgence of the whole D.C. expanded universe, it is it's weird. There's it's weird radio silence.
JVL00:14:05How is Cyborg doing? Is that this? I've been waiting to hear about the Flash. The Flash.
Sonny00:14:10They have a director. They were choosing between two directors like Steven Spielberg and somebody else.
Guest00:14:15Have they greenlit Aquaman 2? Are they going to do it?
Sonny00:14:18I'm pretty sure it's greenlit, but I don't think that it's in production or even pre production yet. I mean, the movie made one point. Two billion dollars or whatever. Like it's going to if they're going to keep making these these movies. Wonder Woman did very well at the box office. They have to make another one. I mean, they've got one essentially in the can.
Guest00:14:34I think I'm sorry. I think what D.C. needs to do and I don't know what what studio did they partner with on Joker? Warners. And right. OK, so, yeah. So what Warren is do Penguin, but don't do. Well, they've got a Batman movie in the works right now. Don't do the Oswald, Cobblepot, Danny DeVito, Monster Penguin from. Batman Returns, but do something similar with to the Joker plot, you know, the origin of the bad guy, but do it with Penguin, who's a mobster, you know, his his rise through the mob. Right. I think that that you can add some realism. It can still be gritty, but it's also kind of keyed into that world. Otherwise, because the problem with a lot of Batman villains is they're so ridiculous. You know, you're not going to follow this up with, you know, killer killer. Right. That's what I'm going to say. Even Catwoman. Yeah. You know. It's there's something you can never really escape the Eartha Kitt legacy. You know, it's kind of it's hard to do something serious with Catwoman. But but Penguin, I think, gives you a nice Catwoman. It's just a she's just a high rise robber. She's I think you could do that pretty easily. They did it. They did it pretty well in Dark Knight Rises. But even that it was I think it was pretty, you know, the only time she's never referred to as Catwoman. Right. In the entire movie in Dark Knight Rises and the only time you ever get that little flash of the old show is when she puts up those goggles at the end, you know, or when she's breaking in. I think she lifts her goggles and they're the little cat ears. There's something kind of kitschy about that character. That's that's all I would. The Riddler.
Sonny00:16:06You know, the Riddler is very serious.
Guest00:16:08Yeah, exactly. That's my point.
Sonny00:16:09It's like, OK, I mean, you could do the Riddler, but it would have to be a Saw movie. Yeah.
JVL00:16:14No, the Riddler. Yeah. No, I actually know what they need to do.
Sonny00:16:18I have the answer. Oh, go ahead.
JVL00:16:19So what we need is a movie in which we learn where Superman came from. Like his the planet, an origin story, an origin story for Superman. Don't you think? Isn't that what we finally need? Because people have forgotten where Superman comes from.
Sonny00:16:37What if we did? And what if what if we had what if we did an origin story for where Superman's dad came from? Could call the show Krypton, put it on CW. Great idea. It'd be canceled after a year. Yeah, that already happened.
JVL00:16:50All right.
Sonny00:16:50That's all I've got. I don't know. I'm but I am fascinated. But this movie dropped only 42 percent. I thought it was going to be very good. I thought I thought it was going to be a bigger drop. Our friend of the show, Gabriel Rossman, suggested that this is a function of people staying away that first weekend that the media actually scared people into scared people into to staying away. So the drop is not necessarily good word of mouth slash high quality of the film. It was just people who were a little bit freaked out.
Guest00:17:15Well, but doesn't that work both ways? I think there's something to it. Like in my case, I I bought into the media narrative. But then that there would be a shooting at a second. No, just that this was, you know, like the more sophisticated critics like Anthony Lane weren't weren't like indulging in the mass hysteria about this is going to lead to the incel revolution. They're more like this. The film is just, oh, you know, a grind to watch and everything is disgusting and it's just pitiful and it's just hitting you over the head all the time. I was like, OK, well, I don't really want to sit through two hours of misery. That's my general rule when I go watch movies. But then on second look and then you start hearing other critics as well. Actually, it's there. It's a dark movie, but there's more to that. And the ending is quite spectacular. And it's like, oh, OK, now maybe I do want to watch this film. And I think it may reward repeated viewings.
JVL00:18:11We got a long, long email that you forwarded to me from a guy who'd seen it three times and had all sorts of very deep insights. He, in fact, thinks that Thomas Wayne is the Jokers. His father. But the most interesting thing he noted is that when the very first time Joker fires the gun in the apartment, it hits a spot of wall and that the wallpaper, the pattern of the wallpaper is the same pattern on the jacket that Robert De Niro was wearing at the very end. Anyway, just little things like that that are going on. And so it could be that the movie just really does reward repeated viewings.
Sonny00:18:51I think it does. I will definitely see it again. Maybe not until it comes out on Blu-ray just because too many other things going on. I've got to go see things like Gemini Man. Gemini Man. Very exciting. Will Smith first. Here's I guess I'll be doing a big boy review. Sonny, how about a big boy?
JVL00:19:07How about a big boy?
Sonny00:19:09Gemini Man is like a refugee from the 1990s that has come to us. It is produced by Jerry Bruckheimer. It is Jerry Bruckheimer Shanghai, a high quality director who is not necessarily known. For action to make a great action movie, Ang Lee, who has made them in the past. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, of course, but is kind of more in the vein of the introspective emotional films.
Guest00:19:33You know, I think you just made a microaggression. You said he was only with Shanghai. Oh, no. Just want to. Oh, no. That's I'm I'm in a lot of trouble. I won't.
Sonny00:19:44I'm in a lot of trouble. But and it and it has it has the easiest elevator pitch of all time. Will Smith fights himself. It is it really feels like a 1990s movie, which is interesting because it uses 2000s technology, not even really 2010s technology, more and more 2000s technology in in. He only has shot this movie in high frame rate 3D, which people kind of dismissively refer to as the soap opera effect or the motion smoothing effect. And we will get to that in a minute. But it is it really is the only interesting. Thing about this movie, which is frankly, again, just a very straightforward 1990s style high concept action movie. Will Smith is Will Smith is the world's greatest assassin. He's cloned by his boss and the clone then must kill the world's greatest assassin to assume his place in the hierarchy of great assassins. More or less.
Guest00:20:44There is one other technological aspect that bears mentioning, which is that unlike the forthcoming Irishman in which there are. Or Irishman in which Pacino and De Niro are de-aged and Pesci and Pesci is de-aged. Though what I learned recently is only for two scenes. The younger Will Smith character here, Junior, is actually entirely a creation of the digital artists. There is no de-aging here. It was it is. He's Gollum. He is Gollum. Yeah. And you can tell that in some of the action scenes, which. The way he moves. Which are just ridiculous. Right. So that is another, I think, aspect of it that deserves, you know, kind of a technical discussion.
JVL00:21:31Would it be funny if it was Andy Serkis playing Will Smith?
Guest00:21:34That would have been funny. I don't know. One of my questions in my notes after the movie was, who played? Will Smith. Because whoever it was, the performance was terrible.
Sonny00:21:46Are you sure about that? Because I've definitely seen images, like stills from the set where Will Smith has like the dot. I think there was. There was some of that, but it's not like they, so he, I think he did play Will Smith,
Guest00:21:56but it wasn't as though he, they recorded a performance and then they said, oh, we're going to use de-aging.
Sonny00:22:04Right.
Guest00:22:04Well, I mean, it's him fighting himself, so there has to be another actor there for him to move against. Sometimes the eye lines are totally wrong. One of the things, I'm not sure any of the people in this movie were ever in the same place at the same time. They're looking off in different directions. My other note was, was Benedict Wong even there? His lines, every single one, Benedict Wong is there as kind of a, you know, sidekick, kind of for comic relief. Every single line he utters in this film falls flat. The timing is off. He adds nothing, and I like this actor a lot, and I was happy to see him appear, but sometimes I was like, is he even there? And sometimes I noticed they were shooting them in one shot, so sometimes, you know, the filmmaker does that, they have to do reshoots, and they have to insert someone into a scene post-doc. No one seemed to actually be interacting with another person.
Sonny00:22:59Well, there was a weird underplayed subplot about them stealing the plane. There were two lines where he's like, where there's like, you know, you gotta have a really good friend to get a plane like that, and then they're just in the plane, and I'm like, wait, what was that setting up? And then they land the plane, and he's like, goodbye, old friend. And I'm like, what is going on with this plane? I don't understand. What's the deal with this? So it was clear there was something that was excised from this movie, I think, that had a lot to do with Benedict Wong. But anyway, so here's the thing. The movie is not good. No, it's not a good movie. As a piece of storytelling, it is not particularly interesting or good. Again, it is like a 90s movie with the quippy one-liners and the very bare-bones plot, and you're just kind of moving from point A to point B to get to the action scenes. Fine. That's fine. What is interesting about this film, and so I saw it in the IMAX high frame rate 3D screening, and I found it to be visually entrancing. I felt like I was—I mean, it is immersive in a way that I have never actually experienced with a 3D film or an IMAX film or anything. It was like being right there. And it felt like being inside a video. This is the best video game since Tomorrow Never Dies, in my opinion. It's not actually based on a video game, but it is shot with the kind of first-person perspective, like on some of those motorcycle chase scenes. You have missions and bosses and cut scenes. And the actual action sequences, again, are incredibly immersive. It was like watching a grenade go off in front of me in some of those explosions and the fire. And I found it all very fascinating and totally entrancing. Will Smith is, again, it's like he's right there. It's like you're looking at him 10 feet away from you. And as an experience, the only time I have felt this way about a film is Gravity. Gravity was a movie that felt immersive, and I actually was kind of short of breath after coming out of it. It was an experience. It was like a cinematic event experience. I've never watched Gravity. Again, because the story, I didn't really care about it. It wasn't that interesting. And I feel the same way about this. I can't imagine, like, sitting down to my TV and watching 30 minutes of Gemini Man when I see it on HBO2 in six months. But it was a fascinating experience, and I'm curious if you guys had a similar reaction to it.
Guest00:25:41I thought the visuals were stunning. I mean, that's what Ang Lee does. I mean, he's a brilliant kind of filmmaker in the composition of the shots, the cinematography. It was great. I also thought it was immersive. Did you see it in the high frame rate? I saw it in 3D 120 FPS, but not on an IMAX screen. Okay, same. And at first it was quite jarring, and I think purposely so. He was doing a lot of depth of field stuff in the first couple of scenes and sequences to kind of get you in there. And so you kind of see, oh, wow, there is kind of a solidity to everything that is missing from a normal film. I actually stopped noticing it, though. By the end of the movie. I think I was so annoyed at the movie for various other reasons that I just, yeah, I felt there. And there was kind of a, especially in the last fight scene, some of those explosions or that ridiculous machine gun that the holdover from Mad Max. The minigun. The minigun, yeah. That was kind of shaky, you know, shook the theater. But what I found actually is I noticed the effect less as the film went on.
Sonny00:26:51I definitely noticed the kind of motion smoothing soap opera-y aspect of it less as the movie went along. It was very, I mean, it's so different. It is so different than anything else in theaters that it is jarring at first. But it definitely grew on me. And the action scene that's set in the kind of courtyard of the apartment complex or the Hacienda style house or whatever that is. The one when they're in Cartagena. When they're in Cartagena, yeah. Yeah, that was a good one. Is just, I mean, again, like he's actually using. Depth of field and using different elevations of the characters to make different images work.
Guest00:27:28I read an interview with him where he, and during the making of the film. And he said just kind of his previous film, The Long Walk movie. Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk or whatever. I didn't see it.
JVL00:27:40I don't think anybody saw it really.
Guest00:27:41Nobody saw it. But he was saying, I'm now, Lee said, I'm now so fixated on the technology and trying to create a new cinema, a new media. That the story is less important. And you know what? It shows. You can tell. You can tell he didn't care about the story or even the performances. JVL, what were your thoughts?
JVL00:28:01It's funny he says that. So this movie has been in development since at least 1997. It has had over the years Tony Scott, Curtis Hanson, and Joe Carnahan all actually attached to direct it. It has had attached to be the star Harrison Ford, Chris O'Donnell, Mel Gibson, John Voight, Nicholas King.
?00:28:20It has had attached to be the star Harrison Ford, Chris O'Donnell, Mel Gibson, John Voight, Nicholas King.
JVL00:28:20It has had attached to be the star Harrison Ford, Chris O'Donnell, Mel Gibson, John Voight, Nicholas King. Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Clint Eastwood, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, and Sean Connery. All at various points in time.
Sonny00:28:28As I said, this is like a refugee from the 1990s. Well, the Harrison Ford version would be awesome.
JVL00:28:33And so Ang Lee comes in and just picks up this thing which has God even knows how many credited writers. Billy Ray, Andrew Nichol, David Benioff, Brian Helgeland, Jonathan Hansley, Stephen Rivetti, and Christopher Wilkinson. There was a very funny story. All the writers. To credit.
Sonny00:28:49Did you notice that? There was a very funny story. There was a story in The Hollywood Reporter about how the guy who wrote the script originally sold it in like the mid-90s, you know, spec script boom. And then it wound up in development hell because nobody could get the technology right. And so what's on the screen is nothing like what he actually wrote because it went through like 17 different iterations from guys like Oscar nominee Billy Ray.
JVL00:29:13So, yeah, he doesn't care about it. So I could not stop. For me, the motion smoothing hype. The high frame rate effect never diminished. And there were only two points in the movie where I understood why it was being used. The first is the explosion, the grenade explosion in the courtyard. So there is a scene where Will Smith, old Will Smith, real Will Smith, is on the top balcony of an enclosed courtyard. Somebody from down below throws a grenade up. He bats it back down and there is an explosion. And the high frame rate explosion. Is astonishing. It looks and feels like if you have ever been to Universal Studios to one of the stunt shows. Where they show how special effects are done and something blows up. That is what it felt like. The immediacy of that was wild. And the only other scene in the movie that takes full advantage of that. Is towards the end when a missile is shot at the jeep and the jeep explodes.
Guest00:30:15Everything else it detracts.
JVL00:30:17The high frame rate action sequences. Where people are fighting or driving. The high frame rate exposes the staging of it.
Guest00:30:26Those things look highly staged.
JVL00:30:28There is no verisimilitude to it. There is no, you actually feel the slowness. Because in movies they are always filming slower than it actually looks on screen. Once you put, you know, like they are driving 45 miles an hour. But they use the camera to make it look like they are driving 90 miles an hour. All of those scenes are exposed this way. And you have to, if you are going to shoot in high frame rate. I think you have to direct. You have to direct the movie differently. You have to use a lot more medium distance coverage shots. You have to stay away from super close-ups. Because the super close-ups look weird. And the actors have to act differently. And this is what I kept coming back to. You know, there has long been the difference between TV actors and movie actors. And the difference is that when you are a movie actor. You are getting a close-up of your face 25 feet tall on a screen. And so you have got to do less. Right? So you have to be able to do more. More expression with less movement. Where television actors can be broader. Right? You use your hands all over. You think about Friends and Ross and Jennifer Aniston. The motions are all very big. With high frame rate, you have to do even less. Because it exposes everything you are doing. And so you have got to be able to hold yourself very, very still. And any time anybody on screen is not holding themselves very still. It looks cheap and staged. In ways that I thought undercut the verisimilitude. The immersion. Or maybe you are being immersed in something that is obviously fake.
Guest00:31:55This is why I think it is important to draw this distinction between the high frame rate 3D. On the one hand. And the character of Junior. The CGI young Will Smith on the other. Because I felt to take that scene in Cartagena for example. The only time when I lost a suspension. Of disbelief. Was when Junior starts moving around. Physically. And it is so clear that he was painted on. Yeah. And this actually goes to your point about. I think related to the high frame rate. Whereas the special effects have to be even better. If there is CGI. Because the eyes picks it up. And he was moving. On the one hand he is supposed to be youthful. And an expert assassin. So he is balletic and acrobatic. But he was. The movements were so bizarre.
JVL00:32:52They were like the first 2001 Spider-Man.
Guest00:32:56Yeah. So that was jarring to me. And that is why I think that the CGI Smith. Was actually a bigger problem. For the movie. Than the type of technical issues you described. Because the performance was also weird. I mean it was just. He talked about not moving. That visage of Junior. Has no expression. He has no expression. And the voice. The voice is. It's kind of. It's the younger Will Smith voice. So for some scenes I thought I was watching. One of Will Smith's first movies. The Six Degrees of Separation. Where he plays the male hustler. And I'm saying what's going on here. What type of movie am I watching. He was a real distraction for me. And this is. It gets to the point about the delay in the production of the movie. Which is. You could do. You could do a version of this movie that works. In fact. Rian Johnson did it. With Looper. You can just cast a younger actor. Who's not the same person. I mean think about if they made it in the 1990s. And Harrison Ford was the middle aged assassin. And yet he's being tracked by a younger. Chris Pine. Yeah. I don't know who the equivalent of the 90s would have been at that point. But yeah. Somebody. Yeah. You know. Say early, early 90s. River Phoenix. When he's still alive. He's. He's. He's there. That would make a good. That's a high concept film.
Sonny00:34:25I also thought Looper looked ridiculous though. I thought. I thought Joseph Gordon-Levitt looked ridiculous. Like made to look up like young Bruce Willis. Because I was like. Well I know what young Bruce Willis looks like. It's not this. So why are you trying to make him. Why are you putting like chin putty. It didn't bother me. I like. I would have rather just.
JVL00:34:41I would have rather just have them. Like just have it be Joseph Gordon-Levitt. You know. So the whole. The whole time though. While I'm watching Gemini Man. I just couldn't stop asking myself. In every single frame. Why are you doing this? Like what. What is. What is the artistic purpose of using high frame right here? And again with the exception of those two scenes. I couldn't come up with one. It literally just felt like somebody playing with the technology. Because they had the technology to play with. And that's always bad.
Sonny00:35:07I. I just. I totally disagree. I found it. I found it really arresting. And totally immersive. Like from that first. From that first scene on the hilltop. Where he's tracking the train. I just. I felt like I was there. Or. The scene on the boat. Right. The. Will Smith goes to visit a friend who is a former assassin. He's living out on a boat.
JVL00:35:29The. The. The water.
Sonny00:35:31Yeah. The water. The water effects just look. I mean it looked like he were in the middle of the ocean. I. Like. I don't know what.
JVL00:35:36The difference between IMAX and non IMAX though. Maybe. I mean. We didn't see it on IMAX. Well. So.
Guest00:35:41But I. I mean. I'm with. I'm with Sonny on some of this. I mean. I agree. That scene on the yacht. And. The. When people are killed. And. Fall off the boat. And they splash. There. Again. There is kind of. This solidity to the water. That I thought was quite striking. But. You know. At the end of the day. If the movie doesn't work. Then. Then it. All these effects don't matter. Right. Right. I mean.
Sonny00:36:05The movie. The movie's not a good movie. I mean.
Guest00:36:07I felt like I was at a funeral. I honestly. I felt. Everyone just seemed so depressed. Will Smith seemed. Old Will Smith seemed depressed throughout the entire movie until one point. I'll get to in a second. Young Will Smith is a. Is a. A. Robot. So. He. He had no emotions. What about Mary Elizabeth Winstead? What did you think of her? I thought she was. Nothing. I didn't think she. She just. She was. She added nothing. I didn't know. I had to look her up because I don't watch the show that she's on. She's on Fargo. Right. She was on a season of Fargo. She's on a season. I had no idea who she was. I liked her in the first few scenes. Where she. Oh. I'm like. Oh. She's the boat attendant. She's the dock attendant. That's cute. They'll have a romance. And then. It turns out. She's a spy too. Wow. And he's like. This is the problem. You just got burned. Mac can't handle strong women. You just got burned. This is. And she has no reaction. She's like. Oh yeah. You got me. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. She had no. Oh thanks for waking me up before the person killed me.
JVL00:37:04She had no emotion.
Guest00:37:05I thought she was delightful in the movie. Oh my God. Frankly. I liked her a lot.
Sonny00:37:08What did you like about her? I like. I just think she's. Perky. She's a great. She's a perky presence. She's a great presence on screen. She lightens everything up a little bit. My big problem with the movie. From a storytelling perspective is the whole last like 15 minutes or 10 minutes where they're like at the college campus and that scene just won't end. Hold it.
Guest00:37:26But that's the only time that Will Smith shows any flash of charisma. The one line. No. Nonsense.
Sonny00:37:3215 seconds before the credits roll. Nonsense.
Guest00:37:35He is joking around about aging is like you got, you know, 200 pounds here. Prime age man. Only time he cracks a joke that made me laugh. And that was the only moment. I don't go to movies for jokes and laughing. I know you don't. I'm not. You go to nihilist cinema.
Sonny00:37:50That's not there for happiness. I want I want you know, if you're going to make a joke, I want it to be I want it to be about this. The awfulness of life.
JVL00:37:57Death and decay. The only the only thing that bothered me. The only true insult to the audience's intelligence that I couldn't stomach. And you when we sat down, you were like, you're not going to pick this movie to death, are you? And I'm not. There's only one one thing. There is this moment where the big reveal is that the evil company. Is cloning super soldiers. And everyone was like, mind blown. I cannot believe that they're cloning super soldiers. The name of the effing company is Gemini. What do you think it means? This is this is like, you know, you know that, you know, Darth Vader means father in German. Dark father. I mean, everything about I was like, of course, that's what they do. They call the company the Gemini Corporation. Like what? But even.
Guest00:38:48That was a letdown because then, oh, they're building this army of super soldiers. And then, you know, and it turns out there's more than one junior. And then but then at the end, they're like, well, luckily, that was the only one. Don't have to worry about that. All of the conflicts are resolved.
Sonny00:39:04Well, then, I mean, this structurally, the story is built like it's going to reveal a big secret halfway through. Except for the fact that literally every advertisement and trailer for this movie has been about that big.
Guest00:39:15No, but also the reveal comes from Mary Elizabeth Winstead. Thank you for pointing that out. There was another thing that annoyed me. You want to have a moment of recognition where he discovers for himself that he's being tracked and hunted by himself, his younger self. Instead, she just does. She goes to an off screen.
Sonny00:39:32She goes to this place in Budapest. She goes to Theranos.
Guest00:39:35Yeah, she goes to Theranos outlet branch in Budapest and says, here, can you take these samples? And then the next scene, she's on a bench. She goes, yeah, you know, it's you. Guess what? It's you. And again, to that funereal sense, he's like. Oh, man. Oh, and then they have another scene later. How are you doing? I'm fine. Don't talk about it. I don't want to talk about how I've been cloned. Let's get back on the plane that we stole from somebody we don't know. I love the two scenes that you see them on the plane going to Europe. And then 20 minutes later, they're back on the plane going back. And now we have to go to Georgia to the huge complex. Literally, the city. And the town. And Clive Owen just tells the person.
Sonny00:40:17It's not clear. Is the town part of the complex? Or is it like a training area? Because the other, they have like an Iraqi town. There's nobody there. For training. Because there's literally no one in this town. It is empty.
Guest00:40:29Yeah, U.S. urban environment. Then the cops show up and Clive Owen's on the walking.
Sonny00:40:32Get out of here. Turn your police men away. We've got terrorists here. Okay. Okay, Clive Owen.
JVL00:40:38Thanks for the heads up.
Sonny00:40:40Somebody made a joke on Twitter that this movie is like a forced march through all of the places where you can get tax credits for shooting. Like, it's like they go to countries where you can get money to shoot. They go to states where you can get money to shoot.
Guest00:40:55Anyway. Well, I saw another. So I finally, just a point of comparison. I finally watched Spider-Man Homecoming yesterday evening. Again, which is another one of these movies where it's a forced march through tax credit cities. And you go through the credits, which, of course, in a Marvel movie you have to read because you want the post-credit scenes. And they thank the governments, you know, of Prague.
Sonny00:41:16Wait, you watched Homecoming or Far From Home?
Guest00:41:17I'm sorry. Far From Home. Far From Home. Right. So Prague and Venice and London and all that. And I was just stunned. After I watched the movie, I said to my wife, I said, I just sat through a movie. I've seen two movies this week, one on Monday in the theater and the other at home. And I enjoyed the one at home so much more. Everything, it was funny. The action was better. The effects were better. The story was better. The characters were better. It's remarkable to me, the level, the difference in quality. But of course, you have good talent associated with Gemini Man. You have Will Smith. You have Clive Owen. You have Ang Lee. Clive Owen, who is phoning it in as hard as I've ever seen anyone phone it in.
JVL00:42:04I say it all the time. I feel like Will Smith is always a pro.
Sonny00:42:08I feel like he's definitely trying his hardest in this movie. The old Will Smith is good. But Clive Owen is just like, hey, Junior, you got to get it together. This is, you got to kill yourself to take it. I was just like, oh my God. It really, every scene with Clive Owen felt like a cut scene from a video game. Lean into the pain. And it really, I do think that the best way to understand this is as an immersive, like, unplayable video game. Like, that is what it feels like.
JVL00:42:34Is Ang Lee in movie jail? Because why else would you pick up this project?
Sonny00:42:39I think he did it because he likes playing around with the high frame rate 3D. I mean, I think that is literally the only reason he did it. This is why he made. He's a tinkerer. You know, Billy Lynn. Half Time, Long Half Time Walk or whatever that dumb movie was. Life of Pi, right? Was kind of similar in terms of the, at least the CGI aspects of it.
JVL00:42:56How sad.
Sonny00:42:57I'd put him in movie jail.
JVL00:42:58You would put him in movie jail after this?
Sonny00:43:00Please. So, speaking of 3D, I mean, I do think that there is something to discuss here about the state of the industry with regard to 3D and 2D. Because if you, if, the one way to think of this film is as a last gasp, last ditch effort to make 3D something. Something worth watching in theaters. An experience that people will pay for. And they need that because the share of 3D tickets sold hit like an eight year low last year. It is, it is, it's now down to. Kill it. It's down to 16% of tickets sold were sold in 3D. 84% were sold in 2D. What was the high?
JVL00:43:42What was the high watermark percentage on 3D? The high water, no, the high watermark in terms of tickets sold.
Sonny00:43:48Is I believe 22% to 78%. So almost one in four at one point, almost one in four tickets sold or almost one in four revenue dollars were. Oh, revenue dollars. Right, right, right. So it's not tickets sold, it's revenue. But, you know, it's now down to. So like the, the, the, in terms of absolute dollars, 3D tickets were sold $6.7 billion worth of tickets, which is lower. Then any point since 2014, non non 3D was 34.4. So like, it's, it's interesting that this is, we are clearly running toward the end of this 3D cycle that we go through every 20 years with Hollywood, where they try to make us watch 3D movies. Now, the big question is, is James Cameron able, able to revive this with his four Avatar movies?
Guest00:44:39And don't we think, aren't there rumors that he's trying to develop some technology that would make the 3D experience different? I don't. No, I mean, I 4D or glassless.
Sonny00:44:51I mean, this is the only they keep, they keep pushing this movie back because they keep trying to, but I just don't see any way that they could roll out glassless 3D in enough theaters that it would be worthwhile, right? Because you would have to upgrade the projectors again, and the theaters are not going to change.
Guest00:45:06The theaters are not going to do that again. So you might have that in a few places for these Avatar films, but mostly it will be people just putting on the glasses. I found, you know, growing up in the last. You know, the tail end, maybe the last 3D thing, it was such a burden to experience 3D. The glasses were heavy. They were, you didn't know how to put them on. They were annoying. I found this movie, I sat there with the glasses. Like I said, by the end of the movie, I didn't, I wasn't even really noticing all the technological aspects all that much. I was just, I was just more annoyed at the story and the performances than anything. Also the score, the score was so depressing. It was just like, oh, you just don't. You don't like, you don't like this movie because it made you feel sad. No movie should make me feel sad.
Sonny00:45:52You should not go see Joker then.
JVL00:45:57Yeah. So Sonny, we should celebrate the death of 3D. I agree.
Sonny00:46:01I hate it. Well, it's, it's interesting as a, as a critic. But you liked it here. I did like it here. Well, look, I liked it here because they were actually doing something with it that felt like more than a cheap cash grab. 3D is fine.
JVL00:46:11Avatar is the perfect example of this, right? I am interested to see what. If you're using it for a purpose, then it's fine.
Sonny00:46:17And sometimes. Sometimes they use it for a purpose and it goes really poorly. Like the Peter Jackson, Hobbit, HFR movies all look terrible. Like they all looked really, really bad.
Guest00:46:26Why do you ascribe that to? Because I was expecting something similar in Gemini Man and that wasn't the case at all.
Sonny00:46:31I think, I think part of it is, I think A, Ong Lee is a better filmmaker than Peter Jackson. But two, I think part of the reason that the Hobbit movies looked so fake is because there is so much costume design and set design. It's like JVL says, right? You really see the seams. And when you, it looked like being at a middle school Ren Fair. That's like all I could, that's all I thought when I, when I was watching the Hobbit movie in HFR. It just looked really bad and really fake. And here, because it's real people in real locations with real, you know, they look like just regular normal folks. I thought it was fine. I don't, I don't think you have that same problem. But yeah, I mean, I, I like, I am excited for the death of 3D as a critic, you know, it's funny when 3D, when the 3D boom kicked off in 2008 or 2009 with Avatar, right? Every time there was a movie that came out in 3D, the studios would make the critics see it in 3D. They would make us go see it in 3D. And that, that is like what we would have to review. And they stopped doing that two or three years ago because all of those movies were getting hammered by critics. Every critic, because critics hate 3D because 3D is terrible. Audiences hate 3D. Adults hate 3D. The only people who like 3D are the 12 year old kids going to see Cars movies. Um, so they like it. Even kids are more into 3D than adults. Kids are more into 3D than adults. Um, but the, the, but like I said, you know, I, you can, I, I wish I could probably go through my inbox, my email inbox and make a chart tracking the decline of 3D just by the number of invitations to 3D screenings. Cause it is like a, it's like a 30 degree down line on the chart.
JVL00:48:15Kill it. Do you remember when we, we were being forced into. Home theater 3D.
Sonny00:48:19I do remember that. I was a little thing.
JVL00:48:22Boy, howdy. And it was going to happen. And there were 3D channels on your cable box and you could, you know, you got to buy the 3D flat screen.
Sonny00:48:29You have to buy the 3D flat screen and the 3D glasses that ran on batteries.
JVL00:48:33Batteries because they have shutters going in them. Because there were people who either believe that, that audience viewing habits were to sit in one place for two and a half hours. Directly in front of the screen. Six feet from the screen. Or they decided that they knew that people didn't actually use a television that way. That most people use it as something that's happening in the background and they move around while it's on. Or they thought they could just force people to change their behavior in relationship to the television screen. Boy, I love it when corporations die like that. Yeah, but you know. We're not going to talk politics.
Guest00:49:07But that's the beauty of capitalism, my friends, is because the dogs wouldn't eat the dog food. These things went away. They're taking the capitalism. The capitalism is taking away Blu-ray. When they, you know, you'll start regretting your ideological turn, Jonathan, when they mandate the 3D home units.
JVL00:49:24Sonny, if Elizabeth Warren promises to issue an executive order commanding that Blu-ray discs still be produced, are you on board?
Sonny00:49:35No, I'm not going to get on board your command economy communism over here. He's wearing red. He's wearing a red vest, ladies and gentlemen. I always knew he was a comic. All right. So anyway, do we have any more any more 3D thoughts? No, we can stretch this out as long as we can. We're going to we're done. We're done. All right. Corrections, additions, corrections, additions, shout outs. JVL, do you have any corrections or shout outs?
JVL00:50:04You know, I have a shout out from somebody. I forgot knows I forget who it was who sent this to me. And so I'm sorry that I'm not giving you credit. I don't do Instagram. Neither of you do Instagram.
Sonny00:50:13I am on Instagram, but I don't really do Instagram.
JVL00:50:16Somebody sent me an Instagram. I'm from something called the Naughty Fork. And it is a picture of a man sticking chopsticks with something in between it into the open and willing mouth of a young blonde woman. And this man is an uncanny doppelganger for Vic. So much so that I initially thought it was Vic. And I thought look that much like Vic. OK, so you're wearing the exact same glasses.
Sonny00:50:47He looks similar. Similar to Vic.
JVL00:50:48Dressing the same. The same hair. Same big grin. The same grin. And he's making the same, you know, the Vic, the patented Vic surprised angry face. Yes. But anybody who hears that sound will know the image of Vic. But if you go to Google and type in Victorino Matus and then do the image search, that's what you get. He's making that face. And it's crazy. I don't know. I'm staring. I've been staring at it literally the entire time we've been taping this episode. I've had Vic. Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic, Vic. You know what?
Guest00:51:19This man's face is not as wide as Vic's.
JVL00:51:25Vic's head. He's a little, a little more vertical.
Guest00:51:29Vic has the Mark Shields, John McLaughlin head. The Olmec head. It's the Olmec head. It's wide. And so that is, that's the giveaway here. The resemblance is funny.
JVL00:51:40Should I go post this on Twitter?
Guest00:51:42Yeah, you should put it on Twitter.
Sonny00:51:43At JVLast.
JVL00:51:45I'm not going to be on Twitter.
Sonny00:51:47All right. That's all the time we are giving to this episode. Questions, comments, complaints, compliments, tweet us at, at SonnyBunch, at Continetti. And if you want to see that picture, at JVLast. He might, he might crack. He might, he might put it on there. Again, be sure to subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Play, or Stitcher. Just type in Sub-Beacon under podcasts and we are there. Leave a review. Tell your friends. Until next time.
JVL00:52:17Sub-Beacon. Sub-Beacon.
Guest00:53:17Uh, fine. November is when the good stuff starts coming up. I'm sure it's fine. Irishman.
Sonny00:53:23Um. You're stepping over our exit line. We say I'm sure it's fine and then the show's over. Say it, Matt. Say it. Now you say it. I'm sure it's fine.
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